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PowerPC Chat 6⁄21⁄93
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1993-06-21
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6/21/93 7:07:57 PM Opening "Chat Log 6/21/93" for recording.
AFA ChrisW : Welcome to the Macintosh Developers Forum weekly
conference...
GregJ7 : ok
IUP : Thank You.
AFA ChrisW : Tonight our special guest is Jordan Mattson of Apple,
who is here to talk about the PowerPC...
AFA ChrisW : and development tools for it...
IUP : Hey, Jordan...
AFA ChrisW : As usual, we'll be using protocol, so type ? if you
have a question or ! if you have a comment on...
AFA ChrisW : the current question. AFC RClark will call on you in
turn.
TishTash : ?
Catapult : ?
AFA ChrisW : Ok, TishTash, you're up first!
Anim8R : ?
TishTash : This is more a marketing question .. but ...
Robert8267 : ?
TishTash : ... with the announced upgrade for the vx and vi (?),
I was wondering if there was going to be ...
TishTash : upgrades (Apple or third-party) for the LC III.
TishTash : ga
JMattson : While we have not currently announced an upgrade
JMattson : for the LC III, we are looking very agressively at
JMattson : providing upgrades for systems other than those
JMattson : that we have announced. We will be working with
third-partys - like what we did with teh rocket -
JMattson : and doing them ourselves.
JMattson : GA
Caleb2 : ?
Warren 252 : ?
TishTash : Thanks
JimSpencer : ?
AFC Wade : ?
Eric Z13 : ?
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Catapult, Anim8R, Robert8267)
AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your
question)
AFC RClark : catapult, go ahead
IUP : ?
Catapult : There are reports in the press that PowerPC
development will translate easily to Companion.
Catapult : Jordan, comments?
JMattson : My first answer is that I like my job...
JMattson : If you read the speculation in the press, about
JMattson : Macintosh services on other platforms, then changing
the processor at the heart
JMattson : of the Macintosh, gets you well placed for that. But
I will not confirm or deny such speculation
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Anim8R, Robert8267, Caleb2, Warren 252,
JimSpencer, AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP)
AFC RClark : animator, you're on!
Anim8R : Jordan, do you feel Sculleys leaving will affect
future develpment of the "really cool" machines,...
Anim8R : The PPC seems to be the first machine that would do
all the things Scul;ley wanted!
Anim8R : GA
BillyCat : JMatt, what is native on the PowerPC for fonts.
TrueType? TrueType GX and Type1 GX?
JMattson : Sculley is not leaving Apple. While he no longer
A Aronson : ?
JMattson : is CEO - Chief Exec Officer - he is still the
Chairman of the Board and Michael Spindler's
AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question
or ! for a comment on the current question)
JMattson : boss. This change allows him to focus on what he has
Sceet8 : ?
JMattson : been doing for the last couple of years. That is
developing cool technologies in Apple and building
JMattson : alliances that move us towards the vision of the
Knowledge Navigator.
JMattson : This is a organization taht you see in many
companies. The CEO is reponsible for the day to day
JMattson : operation, while the Chairman of the board is
responsible for relationships and the future.
JEClark : There was some mention of PowerPC on the AOL brdcst
is this the 'right' place or what?
JMattson : It really is just an acknowledement of what has been
true for sometime.
JMattson : GA
Anim8R : Sort of the best of both worlds. Thanks for clearing
that up!
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Robert8267, Caleb2, Warren 252, JimSpencer,
AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP, A Aronson, Sceet8)
AFC RClark : Robert8267 -- your turn
Sceet8 : Jordan, When PowerPC is anounced, how long do you
think the "old" (now current) Mac will survive?
Robert8267 : When will the Macintosh versions of the PowerPC be
released? Is there even speculation about this yet?
AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question
or ! for a comment on the current question)
AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your
question)
JMattson : Hi Robert...we have announced that we will ship
sometime during the first half of 1994.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : caleb, go
Caleb2 : Apple seems to have been pretty successful at writing
its 680x0
Caleb2 : emulator. But there *must* be some trouble spots. Can
you tell us
Caleb2 : what some of those might be and how to avoid them?
Caleb2 : what some of those might be and how to avoid them?
Caleb2 : (oops)
Caleb2 : ga
JMattson : Caleb...he to disappoint you, but the emulator is
rock solid. The only potential problems are direct
Coelacanth : ?
JMattson : calls to the FPU or the MMU. But remember it is an
LC68040, which means that it does not have an FPU.
JMattson : and that the average person...someone who does not
write system software for a living...
Coelacanth : !
JMattson : should not be writing mmu code.
JMattson : GA
Caleb2 : So ANYTHING goes as long as it works on a real 68040
(LC)
JSteinmetz : ?
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Warren 252, JimSpencer, AFC Wade, Eric Z13,
IUP, Sceet8, Coelacanth, JSteinmetz)
AFC RClark : Well, nit quite *ANYTHING*...
BillyCat : ?
JFisher : ?
JEClark : ?
Caleb2 : Well, that's what I want to know.
AFC RClark : We don't handle all of the obscure supervisor mode
instructions (not used in anything but the OS
TishTash : (I think Coelacanth has a comment?)
AFC RClark : ) and we don't put the exact same thing into
exception stack frames that an 040 does...
AFC RClark : ...(wif motorola doesn't document it, we don't have
to do it that way)
AFC RClark : Coelacanth can go in a sec...
TishTash : (sorry)
JMattson : And you should not be doing things at that level
anyway. We have YET to find an app that breaks the
JMattson : emulator.
HerschelB : What will a lower end Power PC cost?
Caleb2 : Fair enough. Thanks a lot.
JMattson : Excuse me...at last years MacHack, we did find one
app that broke it: TMON Pro, with Waldemar at
JMattson : the controls, for about two hours!
AFA ChrisW : But TMON isn't an application, so it doesn't count!
JMattson : This was because he was using knowledge of the
reserved fields of the
JMattson : bus error exception frame.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : ok, Coelacanth, your comment?
Coelacanth : You say 'potential problems with FPU calls'...this
writes off all'high-end' 3D & CAD software, no?
HerschelB : ?
Coelacanth : And this is potentially a large part of the POWER PC
market...
Coelacanth : GA
JMattson : If you make direct FPU calls - FLines - then it will
not run on the emulator. But the reality of
JMattson : 3D and CAD is that they will WANT to be native.
MHinton : So the emulator can't handle F-line or A-line
exceptions?
JMattson : An FPU emulator would be dog slow, which would make
JMattson : these apps running at a horrible speed.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : (Warren diasppeared) Jim Spencer -- you're up
JimSpencer : In the short term, can we expect sufficient MPW
compilers and assemblers for PowerPC so that we...
JimSpencer : can expect to be able, while waiting for a commercial
grade Bedrock, to be able to...
JimSpencer : continue to use MacApp and/or our existing libraries
to create native PowerPC applications or...
JimSpencer : we be limited to emulation? (Sorry, reading my
question now, it sounds more skeptical than I...
JimSpencer : intended it to be!) ga
JMattson : Short answers...yes! Long answers, their is a press
release
JMattson : going out tomorrow that describes the migration path
to the PowerPC-based Macintosh.
JMattson : In August, a Macintosh on PowerPC SDK will be made
available to those getting
JMattson : seed hardware. It will be commonly available at the
first customer ship of Macintosh on PowerPC.
JMattson : The SDK will contain everything the C/C++ based
developer needs to move to the Mac on PowerPC.
AndrewWelc : ?
DonaldWay : ?
MonarchS : ?
JMattson : We had these tools available - in a prototype version
- at this year's MacHack for anyone who would
JMattson : sign an NDA to use.
JMattson : I think a couple of people here where there. Porting
went very well!
DSPman : ?
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP, Sceet8,
Coelacanth, JSteinmetz, BillyCat, JFisher, JEClark,
JMattson : We got a couple of apps up and made very good
progress on porting Stuffit native. Thanks to Richard
AFA ChrisW : HerschelB, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman)
JMattson : and Leonard for making this possible.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your
question)
Coelacanth : *Baba Booey!*
AFC RClark : Wade -- your 15 seconds of fame have arrived!
AFC Wade : Sorry for this bit of ignorance...I can't afford
WWDC's...we know the PowerPC will run Mac software...
AFC Wade : at approx Quadra speeds (or so we're told)...what
about DOS or Windows...if the IBM machine can..
AFC Wade : run Mac stuff, will we be able to run DOS
stuff..(that is, if we *had* to) :)
Exeter MUG : ?
Evil Tiggy : ?
JMattson : First, who said that the IBM machine will run Mac
stuff?
AFC Wade : Laughing...ummm...the rumor mongers. :)
JMattson : Second, you can run DOS/Windows on a Mac today. I
don't see any reason that this should change.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : (Eric's gone) IUP's UP!
OSU Stumon : !
IUP : Jordan, in the current issue of WIRED magazine, Fred
Davis says the following...
MHinton : ?
IUP : ..."Apple is gradually phasing out the
MAC...Taligent, on the other hand, is designed to
directly run
IUP : on intel systems...the mac 3 systems expected from
apple will be the last family in the mac product
IUP : ...line..." now, this is disturbing and runs totally
counter to everything that
IUP : I've been reading. Apple will produce hardware to run
PPC, as I understand it. Is this guy a former
IUP : disgruntled Apple employee, or what?
IUP : GA
JMattson : I don't know if he is a former employee. I do know
that he is a reporter speculating.
IUP : He is the former editor in ch of MACUSER
JMattson : The kind of evil conspriacy article that he wrote
plays well and sells magazines.
JMattson : The fact is that we are doing the Macintosh. The
Macintosh on PowerPC.
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JSteinmetz, JFisher, JEClark, HerschelB,
AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman,
AFA ChrisW : Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton)
AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your
question)
IUP : Well, he does talk specifically about the various
licensing that ap is doing
JMattson : Now, I won't lie to you and say that it is Macintosh
forever, but the
JMattson : Mac has some more years in it. And those years
AFC Wade : ?
IUP : for various technologies and products; he says that
ap is moving manufcturing offshore, etc.
JMattson : will be spent on the PowerPC. Taligent will have it
day, it will run on PowerPC according to Taligent
JMattson : and it will be cool.
IUP : One last question--
JMattson : But we are going to do the Macintosh, System 7.1 on
PowerPC.
JMattson : GA
IUP : What do you mean, it wont be macintosh forever, do
you
IUP : refer to the fact that it will be supplanted by
Taligent, or what?
Davelf : ?
JMattson : Yes, we are doing things overseas. But we are a
multinational company, we do things in the US,
JMattson : we do things overseas.
JMattson : Not "Macintosh forever" is a reference to the famous
"Apple II" forever campagian at Apple.
IUP : how abt my last question...
JMattson : I don't know what or when will replace the Macintosh.
But I do
IUP : ok, thanks
IUP : ..cuz I'm thinking about
JMattson : know that someday, that it will be replaced. I also
know that it has a long and healthy life ahead
IUP : getting into programming..
JMattson : of it on the PowerPC. Doing things that we never
thought possible.
IUP : and I need to decide, Pc or maC!
JMattson : What I enjoy about the Macintosh on PowerPC program
is that it
JMattson : is the opportunity to see people think about what is
possible
JMattson : all over again.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : JSteinmetz -- We're ready for your question
JSteinmetz : Will a Gestalt call reveal that the emulator has no
MMU or FPU? (This process is too slow) ...
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JFisher, JEClark, HerschelB, AndrewWelc,
DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG,
AFA ChrisW : Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf)
JSteinmetz : Also, if the Power PC is a standard architecture then
should't it run on any PowerPC regardless of
JSteinmetz : whether it came from apple?
JMattson : Of course it will! Though if you currently run
processor type through geslalt, it will say that
JMattson : it is a 68020.
JMattson : The chip is a standard architecture, but a Mac is a
lot more than just a 680x0. It is
JMattson : how they are put together, the support chips, the
bus, all of that stuff that makes a Mac a Mac.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : JFisher, we're ready for you
JFisher : This is a more basic question--I'm a bit confused
reading all the Apple press releases :-) ...
IUP : ?
HarlanR : ?
JFisher : What is the relationship between PowerPC and: Mac
Sys7 (and maybe 8?), PowerOpen, and "Pink"?
JFisher : GA
IUP : !
JMattson : The PowerPC is the processor that will be used in the
next generation of Macintosh.
JMattson : This Macintosh will be running System 7, its
extensions, and future versions of the Mac OS.
AndyABA : How will this system be better than the PC
AndyABA : Or not...
JMattson : PowerOpen is to the Macintosh on PowerPC as A/UX is
today's Macintosh. It will be a mix of AIX and the
JMattson : Macintosh System 7. Pink is the internal code name
for the Taligent OS. Look for my answer earlier on
JMattson : Taligent.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question
or ! for a comment on the current question)
Anytime179 : ?
JFisher : What's the timeframe on PowerOpen?
JFisher : ga
JMattson : PowerOpen will follow after the Macintosh on PowerPC
ships (first customer ship sometime in the
JMattson : first half of 1994). That is all we have announced.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JEClark, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS,
DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton,
AFA ChrisW : AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179)
Pro 1 vid : ?
JFisher : Thanks.
AFC RClark : IUP, your comment?
IUP : Sys 7.1 will run on PPC, but in emulation, right?
Chris2ferG : Hello everybody. What I would like to know is if I
should buy a LC3 now, or wait for the PowerPC? WHY?
AFC RClark : Chris2ferG -- we are on protocol. Please type "?" if
you have a question, and we'll add you
AFC RClark : to the queue
JMattson : The PowerPC based Macintosh will run System 7. It
will run poritions native and poritions emulated.
IUP : sys 7? not 7.1
IUP : ?
JMattson : Running a 680x0 application, you should see
performance comparable to a 25MHz 040 - though
JMattson : this depends on the application. Running native, it
will run like a bat out of hell. Running a native
JFisher : !
Chris2ferG : ?
JMattson : app, it will run like a bat fleeing a supernova in
Spaceward Ho!
Neka : ?
RobToren : ?
JMattson : Yes, it is System 7.1, System 7 is our short-hand for
the current reference release and all the
JMattson : various extensions.
JMattson : GA\
IUP : Thanks!
AFC RClark : JFisher, comment...
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman,
Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade,
JFisher : When you say we should see performance comparable to
a 25MHz 040, is that a 60MHz PowerPC chip?
AFA ChrisW : Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid,
Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren)
JMattson : Yes, that is the 66 MHz PowerPC chip. It will scale
up and down, based on the clock rate.
JMattson : GA
AFC Wade : Please, make your comments comments and not
questions.
AFA ChrisW : (Since the conference is almost over, the question
queue is now closed)
AFC RClark : AndrewWelc: here's your soapbox
IUP : belated apology!
AndrewWelc : Can you name a good source for a PowerPC assembler
book, and also will a native assembler be available
AndrewWelc : for the PowerPC any time soon? GA
JMattson : First, Andrew I would get the PowerPC assembler
reference from Motorola or IBM. I don't have
JMattson : the numbers to call at my finger tips, but they are
available.
Chris2ferG : ?
JMattson : Second, a assembler - running on a 680x0 based Mac,
but targeting the PPC - will be available as
AndrewWelc : What exactly would I ask for, and what department
would I call?
AndrewWelc : (oops)
JMattson : part of the SDK. I will make sure that the Press
Release on the SDK and info on the assembler
JMattson : reference is posted on AOL. I am trying to get the
starter package - currently in the planning stages
JMattson : - available through APDA. Please DO NOT CALL THEM
JMattson : asking for it! When it is available, I will post on
AOL!
JMattson : Third, you will find that you don't want to write
assembler for this box, since the compiler
JMattson : does a much, much better job than any human other
than
JMattson : Waldemar Horwat!
JMattson : GA
AndrewWelc : What exactly would I ask for, and what department
would I call?
AFC RClark : JEClark -- sorry I overlooked you. Go ahead...
AndrewWelc : (About not wanting to do assembler on the PowerPC,
I've heard that before about the Mac! :) )
JEClark : In the device driver level is there documentation
regarding low level details that 68K macs lacked..
JEClark : Also is there a core kernel technology to 'plug'
macos and aux into?
AFA ChrisW : (Jordan has graciously agreed to stay around for a
while longer, so we can take more questions.)
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG,
Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR,
AFA ChrisW : IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka,
RobToren)
AFC RClark : (I've got this one, Jordan)
JEClark : (do I get a tradin allowance for my telephone book IM
JEClark : Ga
AFC RClark : It's the same model as the 68K, at least for now. The
same OS and Toolbox, the same drivers, etc.
AFC RClark : That gives us extremely high compatibility, but we're
not sitting still on improvements either.
AFC RClark : (Change details in the future)
AFC RClark : (we gotta keep you coming back here, right ;) )
AFC RClark : ga
AFC RClark : DonaldWay, thanks for being patient.
DonaldWay : You may have already answered this, but I just want
to be sure...
DonaldWay : You stated that developers who've received seed
hardware would get PowerPC SDK in August...
DonaldWay : and that it would be publicly available when PowerPC
ships...
DonaldWay : Will there be another way to get the tools before
that? Like on the Developer CD?
DonaldWay : (and where do I get the t-shirt?)
DonaldWay : GA
IUP : (what does ga stand for?)
AFC RClark : *** The question queue is now closed. We'll take who
we have ***
AFC RClark : (ga == "go ahead")
JMattson : No, the tools will be available as part of the SDK.
They will not be going out on the Developer CD.
JMattson : Question for the audience - taking a mini-poll here,
I am a marketing dweeb (with the heart of a
JMattson : techie, so I have to do some market research...). How
many people would be interested in purchasing
JMattson : SDK, before they can get hardware. Answers yes or
DonaldWay : yes
GCTan : yes!
JSteinmetz : Yes
DevScott : YES!!
AFA ChrisW : <== yes!
RobToren : yes
AFC Wade : Yes!! The more we can read, the better!
HarlanR : no
Davelf : Yes!
JFisher : what's a SDK?
AndrewWelc : YES
JMattson : no, and the maximum number of months before you would
get hardware: yes, 6 (yes, six months).
AFC Wade : SDK = Software development kit
JMattson : An SDK is a software developer kit. Just means
everything that you need to develop for a platform.
Exeter MUG : yes
DSPman : Perhaps
GCTan : still yes
AFC Wade : amended answer...yes, and as much as possible as soon
as possible
AFA ChrisW : I'll take it whenever I can get it
IUP : I'm not a MAC developer yet
AndrewWelc : everything? :)
DonaldWay : still yes... as soon as I can get it
HarlanR : yes, 2-3
MHinton : Prolly not...
JFisher : no
MonarchS : no
JMattson : Yes or no, and the max number of months before you
get hardeware that you would be willing to get it.
Davelf : Still yes...
MacAllan : N/A - end user only
AndrewWelc : YES, 6 months.
MHinton : expansion: of how much use is an SDK if there's no
platform on which to test the generated code?
DSPman : Yes, if it had a SW simulator for testing code.
GCTan : yes, 6 mos
AFA ChrisW : Information ASAP will be useful, even if it only
allows me to think about what the future will hold.
KitP : Also end user
DevScott : YES..6-8 mos
Davelf : Yes, 6 months.
AFC Wade : Again, the more preparation the better...as long as
we're not forced to buy a new release of the SDK..
DonaldWay : Exactly what ChrisW said... yes, now
AFC Wade : for $299 every 3 months
JMattson : If you got it, would you start moving your code over
(recompiling your it, cleaning it up and getting
JMattson : getting it ready for testing and debugging)
Davelf : Any info at any time would be welcome... :-)
DonaldWay : yes (and seeing what other issues were involved)
JMattson : GA
Evil Tiggy : Sorry Bad node: Yes
DevScott : Definitely.
DonaldWay : We cannot have too much information. Tis impossible.
Davelf : Queue update? Thanx!
JMattson : Thanks for you input...the survey is closed. And the
next question is...
AFC RClark : MonarchS -- You're next
AFA ChrisW : I think even getting the type of info that was
available at MacHack would be useful to many
developers
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy,
MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP,
DonaldWay : So you're thinking about releasing SDK before PowerPC
ships, right?
AFA ChrisW : Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren)
MonarchS : Ok, I have a new LCIII, how much life do you think
the Mac has left in it? (As in years)
Robert8267 : ?
JMattson : Chris W - if you want that, you will have to sign a
NDA.
JMattson : GA
MonarchS : ga
AFA ChrisW : Ok, I won't say anything more then :)
IUP : MOnarch, ga
JMattson : I think that the Mac has a long and interesting life.
At least a decade. I plan on vesting my
JMattson : stock options!!!!!
JMattson : That will take us through 1998!
JMattson : GA
MonarchS : Grin! Also, will there be an upgrade for existing
Macs to PowerPC compatibility? Will Apple still
MonarchS : support the Mac?
JMattson : Apple has announced upgrades for the Centris 610,
650, etc...check MacWeek for details :-)!
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton,
AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1
AFA ChrisW : vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren)
JMattson : The PowerPC IS A Macintosh!!!!! It is a Macintosh
running on a PowerPC!!! BUT it is still a Macintosh.
RobToren : Will it be possible to write one app that tests with
Gestalt if it's a PPC, and then
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : DSPman -- You signalled?
DSPman : I'm very much looking forward to the PowerPC. Will
the PowerPC Mac get a DSP?
MonarchS : What's the price range for those upgrades (and will
there be one for the LCIII)?
JMattson : DSP Man...I am sorry but I can't answers the
specifics. If you are using the managers that take
JMattson : advantage of facilities that might be helped by a
DSP, then you will run fine on any platform that
MonarchS : I mean, will the older Macs (Centris and back) still
be supported? Or will Apple emphasize the
MonarchS : Power PC?
MonarchS : (Whoops!)
JMattson : supports those facilitiees. What is a DSP except for
a very, very fast floating point unit. And
DSPman : Thanks. No more questions here.
JMattson : PowerPC has a very, very fast floating point unit.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : Exeter MUG -- thanks for waiting. Your question?
GCTan : how's our time, imperious leader?
Exeter MUG : Already got answered. Thanks, though?
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf,
HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG,
AFA ChrisW : Neka, RobToren)
Exeter MUG : (oops)
AFC RClark : then it's Evil Tiggy turn
Evil Tiggy : Will there be a P.PC upgrade for my Q 700 Or once
again am I screwed because Ibought a more expensive
Evil Tiggy : Mac
Anytime179 : !
JMattson : Evil Tiggy - we have not announced an upgrade for the
Q700, but we are looking at ones for machines
JMattson : beyond those that we announced support for. Apple
will be doing upgrades, as well as
Evil Tiggy : Please Look hard as an Apple Rep there are a lot of
unhappy 700 users
JMattson : working with third-parties to do them.
Evil Tiggy : that feel like life is passing them by
Evil Tiggy : Thanks and GA
JMattson : Thanks for you comment, I will mention them to the
appropriate folks when I see them.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : Anytime, your comment?
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP,
Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren)
Anytime179 : Last week's MacWeek had a letter from an important
Cuper-type who took excception to the idea that...
Anytime179 : the Quadras had not been mentioned for the upgrade.
He indicated that there would ultimately be...
Anytime179 : support. We need to have some as of late unfounded
faith!
Anytime179 : GA
JMattson : Thanks Anytimes. I should mention that Apple is the
best in the industry at offering upgrades.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : MHinton -- your question?
MHinton : (Upgrade path, cont.) I can see it for NuBus Macs,
but what about PDS machines (P450 / LC3 et al)? GA
JMattson : The upgrades that Apple has mentioned are for LBUs
(Logic Board Upgrades).
JMattson : Third-parties find the PDS slot quite attractive for
upgrades. We are working on both.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : AFC Wade: take 2!
AFC Wade : I know pricing is not set, but you probably are
getting some idea of what this baby will cost..
AFC Wade : how about a hint? A below $##### number?
Thumper727 : Hi, does anyone have an opinion on the Quandra 800?
JMattson : Far below $1,000,000...:-)!
AFC Wade : Touche'
AFC Wade : :)
AFC RClark : Thumper -- we're on protocol. Please just don't pop
in like that
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid,
Chris2ferG, RobToren)
JMattson : Seriously, it will be very competitive...it will be
competitive with 680x0 machines
AFC Wade : Was that $1,000.00? :)
JMattson : that have the same performance as the 680x0 emulator.
JMattson : So you get the same 680x0 performance, but have a
much higher performance when running native apps.
JMattson : So start telling you favorite app developers to start
going native. I want a real time flight
JMattson : simulator. Any one for "Hell Cats Over Tokyo!"
JMattson : GA
AFC Guru : me me me !
AFC RClark : No, "Hell Cats Over redmond" ! :)
JMattson : Or maybe that should be: "Hell Cats over Remond!"
AFC RClark : HarlanR -- you're up
AndrewWelc : I want to write a super-3D Maelstrom! :)
HarlanR : I didn;'t quite get it - is apple working on some
sort of PDS or NUBUS adaptation-
HarlanR : ala Radius Rocket et al?
HarlanR : or even considering it?
JMattson : I can't say...as I said earlier, "I like my job!"
HarlanR : especially for those of us with IIci, IIfx, etc.
HarlanR : oh...
HarlanR : right.
HarlanR : well, I'd like to put in a good word. I cant afford
Quadra right now and then PPC
HarlanR : only have old IIci to limp around on
Robert8267 : ?
JMattson : As I said earlier, we are doing LBU - logic board
upgrades - for which we have announced
HarlanR : (poor thing need siron lung)
JMattson : a whole host of machines that we are supporting.
HarlanR : thanks. GA
JMattson : We are also working with third-parties, evangelising
them to do PDS upgrades.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : IUP -- welcome back
IUP : Jordan, I'll give you the concise version of a
situation I've been grappling with for...
IUP : some time now
IUP : I'm strongly thinking of getting into development; so
the question is: PC or MAC. I've been
IUP : enamored of the mac for a long time now, but i'm
using three criteria to make my decision--
IUP : tecnology, job opportunities, and
IUP : training availability, to learn how to program
whatever system I decide on.
AFC Wade : ! The IIci hardly limps. :)
IUP : What i seem to have found, unfortunately, and this is
what I want your innput otn...
IUP : input on,
Evil Tiggy : !
IUP : is that it is VERY DIFFICULT to find training in the
ny area to learn to program the mac.
Evil Tiggy : Mac is #1 in Business user satisfaction last 2 years
running and it's #1 in Education.
IUP : For example, several local universities...
IUP : NYU, Columbia, Pace, and Baruch, all offer
certificate programs, for those who
IUP : are interested in learning PC programming...
IUP : but for the mac, it seems like you either have to go
to Cupertino (!), or simply "wing-it" ...
IUP : yourself out of books, and developer CD's, etc.
There is New Hampshire, but they do not offer the
JMattson : Ok, first point: technology. The Mac, IMHO, is the
leader in this realm!
IUP : full developer course. One more thing...
JMattson : Second, job opportunites. Every time that I talk to
software develoeprs, they are looking everywhere
JMattson : for talent to program the Mac. They are sucking
wind!!!!!
AndrewWelc : ?
IUP : As it stands, I'm thinking more seriously about the
PC, which is a shame,
JMattson : Third: Training. If you want to learn to program the
Mac, you can get tutored training in Cupertino
IUP : since I do feel that the MAC is the techology leader.
But...
JMattson : But the reality is that you are going to have to do a
lot of learning on your own.
RobToren : Hm...IUP: the line is long. Cut to the chase!
AndrewWelc : (are we still using protocol?)
AFC RClark : Yes, we are on protocol
Evil Tiggy : !
JMattson : And if you want to get started, they you should use
the
WopLobster : Hello Wade....Thought I'd drop in for a second...
IUP : The thing is, I am not currently a profesional
programmer...
Evil Tiggy : ! You said it, it's a Shame you are looking at PC if
you have used Both then you know what you should
JMattson : excellent self-paced materials from DU! (That will be
$5.00 Richard :-))!
Evil Tiggy : learn
Evil Tiggy : ;)
AFA ChrisW : IUP, this really isn't an appropriate forum to
discuss the pros and cons of Mac vs. PC.
JMattson : If you want to learn Windows - not DOS - you will
have to make the trek to Redmond, WA.
AFC RClark : One question for IUP -- do you think that
character-based DOS programming is the real...
AFC RClark : growth market?
AFA ChrisW : Why don't you post a message in the Mac/PC Cross
Development board in MDV?
JMattson : Therefore, you can use our self-paced materials. Or
you can can use the training in Cupertino. The
Evil Tiggy : !LOL RCLARK
IUP : Why do you say I'll have to go to redmond to learn
windows
JMattson : choice is yours.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : Let's go to "Pro 1 vid"
Pro 1 vid : What is the role of Power PC with desktop video? Will
existing capture cards be compatible? Centris
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Anytime179, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren,
Robert8267, AndrewWelc)
Pro 1 vid : or quadra for acurrent purchase with upgrade in mind?
Pro 1 vid : ga
JMattson : The first PowerPC will be able to use existing NuBus
cards. Therefore, you will be able to use
JMattson : what you buy today in it. IT IS A MACINTOSH!!!!!!
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : Anytime179 -- I didn't mean to skip you...GA
Anytime179 : Will Apple and/or IBM sell the the code for the
Power PC (i.e. the "Compaq P.PC.") and will that...
Anytime179 : ultimately mean an end to Mac CPUs and the beginning
of $495 Mac OS (ala Window NT)?
Anytime179 : GA
JMattson : Question out of bounds...I will leave speculation on
such topics to the press. I like my job!
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : Chris2ferG is on
Chris2ferG : Should I buy an LC 3 now, or wait for the Power PC.
And why? I'm using it for personal use.
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: RobToren, Robert8267, AndrewWelc)
JMattson : Do you need the computer today? Then buy it! As we
all know, the machine you can buy today will be
JMattson : quickly surplanted by something else tomorrow.
JMattson : Buy it know, if you need it.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : RobToren, you're up
RobToren : Will it be possible to write one app that tests with
Gestalt if it's a PPC, and then
AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Robert8267, AndrewWelc)
RobToren : calls different segments for the 68K or for the PPC?
Or will developers have
RobToren : to ship two separate versions? Thanks, GA
JMattson : Actually, it is better than a gestalt call. The
runtime architecture has changed a little.
RobToren : Waddya mean?
JMattson : Now, there is a thing called the Code Fragment Loader
- CFL. It will load your code be it 68K or
JMattson : PowerPC. It will check for the existence of the CFRI
resource and if it finds it, will run your
JMattson : PowerPC code. If it does not find it, it will run
your 68K code.
JMattson : This enables you to easily and transparently ship
what we call a "Fat Binary".
JMattson : Building a fat binary involves a few not-so fancy
operations with rez.
JMattson : GA
RobToren : Thanks. GA
AFC RClark : One more thing...
AFC RClark : PowerPC apps can call 68K code with very little
effort, and...
AFC RClark : 68K apps can call POwerPC code (such as a "native"
XCMD) with no effort...
AFC RClark : (thoug the PowerPC XCMD has to include a special data
structure.)
AFC RClark : We've really done our homework.
AFC RClark : Robert8267 -- your turn
Robert8267 : Can you even SUGGEST a possible price range on the
MacPowerPC?
JMattson : NO!!!!!! We will initially be offering a mid-range
configuration and a high-end configuration.
JMattson : The answers to this question was given earlier.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : AndrewWelc, take us home.
AndrewWelc : OK!
AndrewWelc : Right now I see the "standard" OS and platform up in
the air, more so than ever before in the PC
AFA ChrisW : (A log of tonight's conference will be available here
in MDV before the end of the week.)
AndrewWelc : industry. We've got Taligent, we've got Solaris,
we've got NeXTSTEP, we've got Windows NT
AndrewWelc : --and many more--all from big players, and all with
their sights on the same market. What
AndrewWelc : makes you believe that Taligent will be a market
leader? GA
JMattson : First, I did not say that Taligent will be the market
leader. We are here tonight to talk
JMattson : about the Macintosh (I said, Macintosh) on PowerPC.
This and Taligent are two VERY Different things.
JMattson : Second, I don't believe that Taligent, Solaris,
NextStep, and Windows NT are all going after the same
AndrewWelc : Right, I understand that. Figured I'd give it a shot
anyway... (can't hurt to pry--or is that try?)
JMattson : market segment. NextStep is almost dead. Solaris and
Taligent said that they are going after the
AFC RClark : Andrew -- is there a difference? <grin>
JMattson : enterprise market. MS is repositioning Windows NT as
a server product. Very different products with
JMattson : different markets. I don't think that we will ever
JMattson : have an OS uber alles.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : Jordan, before we conclude, can you say anything
about development tools for the PowerPC,
AFA ChrisW : specifically with regard to the Apple/Symantec
announcement at WWDC? There has been some
AFA ChrisW : confusion about the meaning of this announcement,
perhaps you can clear things up? GA
JMattson : Ok, Chris!
JMattson : At the WWDC Apple and Symantec announced that we are
co-developing a next generation development
JMattson : environment for the Macintosh. This project will
involve Apple and Symantec engineers, product
JMattson : marketing people, project mgmt people, and tech pubs
(and even maybe training people)
JMattson : working together to define, implement, and deliver a
new development environment for the Macintosh.
JMattson : The first incarnation of this development environment
will appear on the Macintosh on PowerPC.
JMattson : Any other questions Chris? I can take a few more. My
girl friend is studying for the Bar Exam, so I am
JMattson : very free!
AFA ChrisW : Thanks for the info. Seeing how we've been talking
mostly about marketing tonight, I figured a
AFA ChrisW : question actually about development would be a good
idea!
AFA ChrisW : Any more questions for Jordan tonight?
OSU Stumon : ?
JMattson : What! Marketing! I answered at least two or three
technical questions!!!!
AndrewWelc : ?
AFA ChrisW : :)
AFC RClark : OK, OSU -- ask away
OSU Stumon : Jordan, I missed this at MacHack...
OSU Stumon : What does a company have to do to get one of the
first development PowerPCs?
OSU Stumon : ga
IUP : ?
JMattson : You need to submit a migration plan that outlines
what you are going to do for the Mac on PowerPC
JMattson : and how this will take advantage of the Macintosh on
PowerPC.
JMattson : There is a template for this migration plan. If you
send me EMail to Mattson1 on AppleLink (remember
JMattson : the 1, or some poor sales person in MN will get my
mail) I will send it to you.
JMattson : GA
AndrewWelc : Here's another pry--I mean try at it. How radically
different will the PINK user and developer
AFC Wade : Rumor read today in InforWorld...NT runs Windows apps
up to 40% slower than Win 3.1...Ha! :)
AndrewWelc : interface be from the current Macintosh interface? I
am hoping for some real improvements,
AndrewWelc : as the basis of the Mac interface (programmer and
user) haven't changed much since 1984! GA
JMattson : Andrew, Taligent is a separate company! Contact
Taligent to have these questions answered.
AndrewWelc : Oh -- and despite Microsoft saying Windows NT is
server technology, I'm very skeptical about that.
AndrewWelc : I know -- I was hoping for some inside information --
nod nod, grin grin, wink wink, say no more...
JMattson : Even if I knew how to answers your question - I don't
- I could not legally, without out bringing the
JMattson : wrath of the FTC down on my head.
JMattson : GA
AndrewWelc : Don't want to pull a Ramsey, eh? :)
AFC Wade : You know what I want? When copying over files that
exist, I want the option to copy only the ones that
JMattson : Andrew...one, I don't know the answer! Two, I am
legally pervented from revealing such information
AFC Wade : don't exist, rather than cancelling the whole
operation. :)
JMattson : if I did, by the anti-trust laws of this country.
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : IUP -- you're back on (please be succinct)
AndrewWelc : Gotcha. That would be a bad thing.
IUP : ok
AFC Wade : Are we still on protocol?? Ohh my gosh!
AndrewWelc : 'Twas worth a shot. Ok, I've got a question you can
answer...
IUP : I was simply trying to see..
AFC Wade : <---terribly embarrassed!
Somogyi : ?
AndrewWelc : I'm concerned about some of the Mac Toolbox Managers;
their limitations specifically, such as
IUP : if the top brass at Apple are aware that there are
people...
AndrewWelc : trashed resource files, 32K TextEdit limit, etc. I'm
concerned that moving these existing managers to
IUP : out across the country who truly would LIKE to get
into Mac development, but there is not enough...
AndrewWelc : a screaming fast machine will naturally lead to
programmers and users stressing their tolerances
IUP : DIRECT Apple support.
AndrewWelc : too much, causing even more problems than we have
today. What do you think about that? GA
IUP : Hey Andrew, I had protocal priority
AndrewWelc : (sorry, my mistake)
JMattson : First, Andrew: We are looking at how to best move the
various managers to the PPC-based Mac.
JMattson : We have a lot of very smart people working on this,
and compatibility is our top goal. Its compatibili
IUP : (please resend direct message--accidental deletion)
JMattson : , performance, and then new features.
AFC RClark : !
AndrewWelc : !
JMattson : IUP: We are very aware. That is why we have created
the self-paced courses.
RobToren : !
JMattson : It is simply not possible for Apple to offer DU
classes in every town. We offer them in Cupertino
JMattson : and a couple fo other places. The Self-paced classes
are available everywhere.
AFC Wade : !
JMattson : The courses that you mentioned are not direct from
MS. Rather they are offered by local schools. We
JMattson : also support this. If you want such a class, inquiry
about it being offered.
IUP : OK, fair enough, but how about at least offering them
on the other major U.S. coast?
JMattson : But if you want to learn to program and program the
mac, the best place to start is here.
JMattson : Get involved in some of the self-paced classes here.
Try the DU self-paced classes. Start trying
JMattson : to program the Mac. That is how I learned...back when
we had the phone book edition of Inside Mac.
IUP : A professional programmer might be comfortable with
self-paced courses, Others might not be , and
IUP : would be discouraged--like me.
JMattson : In addition, the classes are offered from time to
time on the East Coast. Or at least the East.
JMattson : The self-paced courses are designed for the begineer.
Ask Richard Clark to telll you about them.
GCTan : ! Boston and DC, I think
IUP : Yes--but only from time-to-time, and not the entire
Aple developer program
JMattson : It is the same material that is presented in DU
courses. And it has the advantage that you can take
it
JMattson : at your own pace and review concepts that you are
unclear about. They are very highly rated by the
JMattson : folks that take them. I highly recommend them.
IUP : I appreciate what you're saying, but let's all
acknowledge that
JMattson : GA
RobToren : !Self paced courses *very* expensive. Problem!!
JMattson : So Are DU classes!!!!
JMattson : But back to the PPC!!!!!!
AFC RClark : IUP -- we can talk about this seperately, and come up
with some solutions. (I'm a Sr. Instructor at DU
IUP : programming is a complex task, and the student will
need in person explaining some of the time...
RobToren : !This isn't in Apple's favor...
AFC RClark : Andrew, your comment about the managers?
AndrewWelc : I guess I sort of see it as dropping a V8 into a VW
bug, if you get my meaning--the frame won't handle
AndrewWelc : the engine's torque.
AndrewWelc : But I understand the reasoning completely. GA
AFC RClark : Reasoning by analogy is always dangerous, and usually
wrong. However, we DO know where the...
AFC RClark : system could use some overhauling, and are seeing
what we can do without breaking the world.
AFC RClark : (Too bad you weren't at MacHack -- I think you would
have liked some of what I could show you...
AFC RClark : in the lab.)
AFC RClark : GA
AndrewWelc : (that's the real trick isn't it, the
compatibility--damned if you do, damned if you don't)
AndrewWelc : GA
AFC RClark : Note that PowerPC is a much faster processor. That
dodsn't, by itself, add or subtract stability...
AFC RClark : in the system. And stability and compatibility are
pretty amazing!
JMattson : Yes, After Dark runs emulated!!!!!
JMattson : GA
AFC RClark : OK, Somogyi has a question to ask all of you...
AFA ChrisW : Yeah, and they patch 53 traps!
Somogyi : This is a question directed not at Jordan, but at
everyone else:
AFC Guru : including some they didn't even intend to!
Somogyi : What kind of information would people in attendance
here like to see in a PowerPC-Mac book?
Somogyi : Needless to say, this is not a completely idle
question.
Somogyi : GA
AFC Guru : We call that Fishing!
AndrewWelc : !
IUP : ? (uncharacteristically brief parting question and
comment--I have to go...)
RobToren : Fish away. Compatibility with 68K, and info about a
specific development environment.
Somogyi : That's it?! Heavens, I was expecting more from this
group :-)
DonaldWay : Everything that is different about Macintosh on Power
PC, and everything that a developer needs...
DonaldWay : to know to take advantage of the PowerPC's
capabilities.
AFC Wade : What it is, how much it will be, how much it will
change the user's Mac life
AFC Wade : What tips, tricks and traps the developer has to be
aware of
AFC Wade : A chapter on future plans, Taligent, etc.
RobToren : Somogyi: I hope you get strong support from Apl
Evangelists. Many more developr books for NT thn Mac
AFC Wade : By the way Jordan can you tell us how much faster a
native app will run? 2 times faster than a Quadra
AFC Wade : 800? 5? 10?
DonaldWay : A Symantec C++ bug list would be nice too.
Somogyi : Apple is doing a great job supporting this effort.
RobToren : Wonderful!
AFC RClark : (Stephan is the only MacWeek guy we allow in our
secret PowerPC presentations.)
Somogyi : Ahem. Richard, I work for MacUser during the day, not
our non-NDA-signing sister pub...
AFC RClark : Oops, sorry. "MacUser" it is...
JMattson : The PowerPC Macintosh will run native apps in integer
operations 2 to 4 times faster than a Quadra 950
JMattson : Floating point is 10 to 20 times fasters than a
Quadra 950. This depends on the applications
Somogyi : I'm heartened that no-one here has suggested anything
that isn't already on my list. Thanks to all.
JMattson : profile. If you are just running your code, you will
hit the top end. If you are calling a lot of the
AFC RClark : ...I forgot you don't have that "hardened criminal"
look
JMattson : toolbox that is emulated, than it will be slower. If
you are calling the sections of the toolbox
JMattson : that are native and your own code, it will be
somewhere in between.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : Any final questions about the PowerPC for Jordan
tonight?
AndrewWelc : Sure... can I have a free one?
DonaldWay : T-shirts?
IUP : (***Best of Luck, Jordan--Thanks***)
OSU Stumon : Sega PowerPCs? ;)
IUP : Yeah, Jordan, can you send me a PPC tee-shirt?
AndrewWelc : A Power PP tee-shirt? Could get you into
trouble...:)
DonaldWay : LOL!
JMattson : T-shirts, those got cut in the last round of budget
cuts. We have to hand paint them now on our lunch
JMattson : hours!!!!!!!
IUP : I'l love one--I could wear it while visiting PC
dealers!
DonaldWay : LOL!
AFC RClark : OK, Chris -- Say Goodnight, Gracie!
DonaldWay : Thanks for the great info Jordan!
JMattson : Thanks for coming at hearing about the MACINTOSH on
POWERPC...if you have any questions, just drop me
JMattson : an Email at Mattson1@AppleLink.Apple.COM.
AFA ChrisW : Jordan, on behalf of all the MDV staff, I'd like to
thank you for taking the time to be with us...
JMattson : If you want the migration plan template, drop me a
link there and I will send it to you.
JMattson : GA
AFA ChrisW : tonight. Much appreciated!
JFisher : Thanks.
JMattson : Goodnight every one....May the God Lord guide your
steps!
6/21/93 9:32:14 PM Closing Log file.