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6/21/93 7:07:57 PM Opening "Chat Log 6/21/93" for recording. AFA ChrisW : Welcome to the Macintosh Developers Forum weekly conference... GregJ7 : ok IUP : Thank You. AFA ChrisW : Tonight our special guest is Jordan Mattson of Apple, who is here to talk about the PowerPC... AFA ChrisW : and development tools for it... IUP : Hey, Jordan... AFA ChrisW : As usual, we'll be using protocol, so type ? if you have a question or ! if you have a comment on... AFA ChrisW : the current question. AFC RClark will call on you in turn. TishTash : ? Catapult : ? AFA ChrisW : Ok, TishTash, you're up first! Anim8R : ? TishTash : This is more a marketing question .. but ... Robert8267 : ? TishTash : ... with the announced upgrade for the vx and vi (?), I was wondering if there was going to be ... TishTash : upgrades (Apple or third-party) for the LC III. TishTash : ga JMattson : While we have not currently announced an upgrade JMattson : for the LC III, we are looking very agressively at JMattson : providing upgrades for systems other than those JMattson : that we have announced. We will be working with third-partys - like what we did with teh rocket - JMattson : and doing them ourselves. JMattson : GA Caleb2 : ? Warren 252 : ? TishTash : Thanks JimSpencer : ? AFC Wade : ? Eric Z13 : ? AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Catapult, Anim8R, Robert8267) AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your question) AFC RClark : catapult, go ahead IUP : ? Catapult : There are reports in the press that PowerPC development will translate easily to Companion. Catapult : Jordan, comments? JMattson : My first answer is that I like my job... JMattson : If you read the speculation in the press, about JMattson : Macintosh services on other platforms, then changing the processor at the heart JMattson : of the Macintosh, gets you well placed for that. But I will not confirm or deny such speculation JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Anim8R, Robert8267, Caleb2, Warren 252, JimSpencer, AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP) AFC RClark : animator, you're on! Anim8R : Jordan, do you feel Sculleys leaving will affect future develpment of the "really cool" machines,... Anim8R : The PPC seems to be the first machine that would do all the things Scul;ley wanted! Anim8R : GA BillyCat : JMatt, what is native on the PowerPC for fonts. TrueType? TrueType GX and Type1 GX? JMattson : Sculley is not leaving Apple. While he no longer A Aronson : ? JMattson : is CEO - Chief Exec Officer - he is still the Chairman of the Board and Michael Spindler's AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question or ! for a comment on the current question) JMattson : boss. This change allows him to focus on what he has Sceet8 : ? JMattson : been doing for the last couple of years. That is developing cool technologies in Apple and building JMattson : alliances that move us towards the vision of the Knowledge Navigator. JMattson : This is a organization taht you see in many companies. The CEO is reponsible for the day to day JMattson : operation, while the Chairman of the board is responsible for relationships and the future. JEClark : There was some mention of PowerPC on the AOL brdcst is this the 'right' place or what? JMattson : It really is just an acknowledement of what has been true for sometime. JMattson : GA Anim8R : Sort of the best of both worlds. Thanks for clearing that up! AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Robert8267, Caleb2, Warren 252, JimSpencer, AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP, A Aronson, Sceet8) AFC RClark : Robert8267 -- your turn Sceet8 : Jordan, When PowerPC is anounced, how long do you think the "old" (now current) Mac will survive? Robert8267 : When will the Macintosh versions of the PowerPC be released? Is there even speculation about this yet? AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question or ! for a comment on the current question) AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your question) JMattson : Hi Robert...we have announced that we will ship sometime during the first half of 1994. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : caleb, go Caleb2 : Apple seems to have been pretty successful at writing its 680x0 Caleb2 : emulator. But there *must* be some trouble spots. Can you tell us Caleb2 : what some of those might be and how to avoid them? Caleb2 : what some of those might be and how to avoid them? Caleb2 : (oops) Caleb2 : ga JMattson : Caleb...he to disappoint you, but the emulator is rock solid. The only potential problems are direct Coelacanth : ? JMattson : calls to the FPU or the MMU. But remember it is an LC68040, which means that it does not have an FPU. JMattson : and that the average person...someone who does not write system software for a living... Coelacanth : ! JMattson : should not be writing mmu code. JMattson : GA Caleb2 : So ANYTHING goes as long as it works on a real 68040 (LC) JSteinmetz : ? AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Warren 252, JimSpencer, AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP, Sceet8, Coelacanth, JSteinmetz) AFC RClark : Well, nit quite *ANYTHING*... BillyCat : ? JFisher : ? JEClark : ? Caleb2 : Well, that's what I want to know. AFC RClark : We don't handle all of the obscure supervisor mode instructions (not used in anything but the OS TishTash : (I think Coelacanth has a comment?) AFC RClark : ) and we don't put the exact same thing into exception stack frames that an 040 does... AFC RClark : ...(wif motorola doesn't document it, we don't have to do it that way) AFC RClark : Coelacanth can go in a sec... TishTash : (sorry) JMattson : And you should not be doing things at that level anyway. We have YET to find an app that breaks the JMattson : emulator. HerschelB : What will a lower end Power PC cost? Caleb2 : Fair enough. Thanks a lot. JMattson : Excuse me...at last years MacHack, we did find one app that broke it: TMON Pro, with Waldemar at JMattson : the controls, for about two hours! AFA ChrisW : But TMON isn't an application, so it doesn't count! JMattson : This was because he was using knowledge of the reserved fields of the JMattson : bus error exception frame. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : ok, Coelacanth, your comment? Coelacanth : You say 'potential problems with FPU calls'...this writes off all'high-end' 3D & CAD software, no? HerschelB : ? Coelacanth : And this is potentially a large part of the POWER PC market... Coelacanth : GA JMattson : If you make direct FPU calls - FLines - then it will not run on the emulator. But the reality of JMattson : 3D and CAD is that they will WANT to be native. MHinton : So the emulator can't handle F-line or A-line exceptions? JMattson : An FPU emulator would be dog slow, which would make JMattson : these apps running at a horrible speed. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : (Warren diasppeared) Jim Spencer -- you're up JimSpencer : In the short term, can we expect sufficient MPW compilers and assemblers for PowerPC so that we... JimSpencer : can expect to be able, while waiting for a commercial grade Bedrock, to be able to... JimSpencer : continue to use MacApp and/or our existing libraries to create native PowerPC applications or... JimSpencer : we be limited to emulation? (Sorry, reading my question now, it sounds more skeptical than I... JimSpencer : intended it to be!) ga JMattson : Short answers...yes! Long answers, their is a press release JMattson : going out tomorrow that describes the migration path to the PowerPC-based Macintosh. JMattson : In August, a Macintosh on PowerPC SDK will be made available to those getting JMattson : seed hardware. It will be commonly available at the first customer ship of Macintosh on PowerPC. JMattson : The SDK will contain everything the C/C++ based developer needs to move to the Mac on PowerPC. AndrewWelc : ? DonaldWay : ? MonarchS : ? JMattson : We had these tools available - in a prototype version - at this year's MacHack for anyone who would JMattson : sign an NDA to use. JMattson : I think a couple of people here where there. Porting went very well! DSPman : ? AFA ChrisW : (? queue: AFC Wade, Eric Z13, IUP, Sceet8, Coelacanth, JSteinmetz, BillyCat, JFisher, JEClark, JMattson : We got a couple of apps up and made very good progress on porting Stuffit native. Thanks to Richard AFA ChrisW : HerschelB, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman) JMattson : and Leonard for making this possible. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your question) Coelacanth : *Baba Booey!* AFC RClark : Wade -- your 15 seconds of fame have arrived! AFC Wade : Sorry for this bit of ignorance...I can't afford WWDC's...we know the PowerPC will run Mac software... AFC Wade : at approx Quadra speeds (or so we're told)...what about DOS or Windows...if the IBM machine can.. AFC Wade : run Mac stuff, will we be able to run DOS stuff..(that is, if we *had* to) :) Exeter MUG : ? Evil Tiggy : ? JMattson : First, who said that the IBM machine will run Mac stuff? AFC Wade : Laughing...ummm...the rumor mongers. :) JMattson : Second, you can run DOS/Windows on a Mac today. I don't see any reason that this should change. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : (Eric's gone) IUP's UP! OSU Stumon : ! IUP : Jordan, in the current issue of WIRED magazine, Fred Davis says the following... MHinton : ? IUP : ..."Apple is gradually phasing out the MAC...Taligent, on the other hand, is designed to directly run IUP : on intel systems...the mac 3 systems expected from apple will be the last family in the mac product IUP : ...line..." now, this is disturbing and runs totally counter to everything that IUP : I've been reading. Apple will produce hardware to run PPC, as I understand it. Is this guy a former IUP : disgruntled Apple employee, or what? IUP : GA JMattson : I don't know if he is a former employee. I do know that he is a reporter speculating. IUP : He is the former editor in ch of MACUSER JMattson : The kind of evil conspriacy article that he wrote plays well and sells magazines. JMattson : The fact is that we are doing the Macintosh. The Macintosh on PowerPC. AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JSteinmetz, JFisher, JEClark, HerschelB, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, AFA ChrisW : Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton) AFA ChrisW : (Please wait to be called upon before asking your question) IUP : Well, he does talk specifically about the various licensing that ap is doing JMattson : Now, I won't lie to you and say that it is Macintosh forever, but the JMattson : Mac has some more years in it. And those years AFC Wade : ? IUP : for various technologies and products; he says that ap is moving manufcturing offshore, etc. JMattson : will be spent on the PowerPC. Taligent will have it day, it will run on PowerPC according to Taligent JMattson : and it will be cool. IUP : One last question-- JMattson : But we are going to do the Macintosh, System 7.1 on PowerPC. JMattson : GA IUP : What do you mean, it wont be macintosh forever, do you IUP : refer to the fact that it will be supplanted by Taligent, or what? Davelf : ? JMattson : Yes, we are doing things overseas. But we are a multinational company, we do things in the US, JMattson : we do things overseas. JMattson : Not "Macintosh forever" is a reference to the famous "Apple II" forever campagian at Apple. IUP : how abt my last question... JMattson : I don't know what or when will replace the Macintosh. But I do IUP : ok, thanks IUP : ..cuz I'm thinking about JMattson : know that someday, that it will be replaced. I also know that it has a long and healthy life ahead IUP : getting into programming.. JMattson : of it on the PowerPC. Doing things that we never thought possible. IUP : and I need to decide, Pc or maC! JMattson : What I enjoy about the Macintosh on PowerPC program is that it JMattson : is the opportunity to see people think about what is possible JMattson : all over again. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : JSteinmetz -- We're ready for your question JSteinmetz : Will a Gestalt call reveal that the emulator has no MMU or FPU? (This process is too slow) ... AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JFisher, JEClark, HerschelB, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, AFA ChrisW : Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf) JSteinmetz : Also, if the Power PC is a standard architecture then should't it run on any PowerPC regardless of JSteinmetz : whether it came from apple? JMattson : Of course it will! Though if you currently run processor type through geslalt, it will say that JMattson : it is a 68020. JMattson : The chip is a standard architecture, but a Mac is a lot more than just a 680x0. It is JMattson : how they are put together, the support chips, the bus, all of that stuff that makes a Mac a Mac. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : JFisher, we're ready for you JFisher : This is a more basic question--I'm a bit confused reading all the Apple press releases :-) ... IUP : ? HarlanR : ? JFisher : What is the relationship between PowerPC and: Mac Sys7 (and maybe 8?), PowerOpen, and "Pink"? JFisher : GA IUP : ! JMattson : The PowerPC is the processor that will be used in the next generation of Macintosh. JMattson : This Macintosh will be running System 7, its extensions, and future versions of the Mac OS. AndyABA : How will this system be better than the PC AndyABA : Or not... JMattson : PowerOpen is to the Macintosh on PowerPC as A/UX is today's Macintosh. It will be a mix of AIX and the JMattson : Macintosh System 7. Pink is the internal code name for the Taligent OS. Look for my answer earlier on JMattson : Taligent. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : (We are using protocol; type ? if you have a question or ! for a comment on the current question) Anytime179 : ? JFisher : What's the timeframe on PowerOpen? JFisher : ga JMattson : PowerOpen will follow after the Macintosh on PowerPC ships (first customer ship sometime in the JMattson : first half of 1994). That is all we have announced. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : (? queue: JEClark, AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFA ChrisW : AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179) Pro 1 vid : ? JFisher : Thanks. AFC RClark : IUP, your comment? IUP : Sys 7.1 will run on PPC, but in emulation, right? Chris2ferG : Hello everybody. What I would like to know is if I should buy a LC3 now, or wait for the PowerPC? WHY? AFC RClark : Chris2ferG -- we are on protocol. Please type "?" if you have a question, and we'll add you AFC RClark : to the queue JMattson : The PowerPC based Macintosh will run System 7. It will run poritions native and poritions emulated. IUP : sys 7? not 7.1 IUP : ? JMattson : Running a 680x0 application, you should see performance comparable to a 25MHz 040 - though JMattson : this depends on the application. Running native, it will run like a bat out of hell. Running a native JFisher : ! Chris2ferG : ? JMattson : app, it will run like a bat fleeing a supernova in Spaceward Ho! Neka : ? RobToren : ? JMattson : Yes, it is System 7.1, System 7 is our short-hand for the current reference release and all the JMattson : various extensions. JMattson : GA\ IUP : Thanks! AFC RClark : JFisher, comment... AFA ChrisW : (? queue: AndrewWelc, DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, JFisher : When you say we should see performance comparable to a 25MHz 040, is that a 60MHz PowerPC chip? AFA ChrisW : Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren) JMattson : Yes, that is the 66 MHz PowerPC chip. It will scale up and down, based on the clock rate. JMattson : GA AFC Wade : Please, make your comments comments and not questions. AFA ChrisW : (Since the conference is almost over, the question queue is now closed) AFC RClark : AndrewWelc: here's your soapbox IUP : belated apology! AndrewWelc : Can you name a good source for a PowerPC assembler book, and also will a native assembler be available AndrewWelc : for the PowerPC any time soon? GA JMattson : First, Andrew I would get the PowerPC assembler reference from Motorola or IBM. I don't have JMattson : the numbers to call at my finger tips, but they are available. Chris2ferG : ? JMattson : Second, a assembler - running on a 680x0 based Mac, but targeting the PPC - will be available as AndrewWelc : What exactly would I ask for, and what department would I call? AndrewWelc : (oops) JMattson : part of the SDK. I will make sure that the Press Release on the SDK and info on the assembler JMattson : reference is posted on AOL. I am trying to get the starter package - currently in the planning stages JMattson : - available through APDA. Please DO NOT CALL THEM JMattson : asking for it! When it is available, I will post on AOL! JMattson : Third, you will find that you don't want to write assembler for this box, since the compiler JMattson : does a much, much better job than any human other than JMattson : Waldemar Horwat! JMattson : GA AndrewWelc : What exactly would I ask for, and what department would I call? AFC RClark : JEClark -- sorry I overlooked you. Go ahead... AndrewWelc : (About not wanting to do assembler on the PowerPC, I've heard that before about the Mac! :) ) JEClark : In the device driver level is there documentation regarding low level details that 68K macs lacked.. JEClark : Also is there a core kernel technology to 'plug' macos and aux into? AFA ChrisW : (Jordan has graciously agreed to stay around for a while longer, so we can take more questions.) AFA ChrisW : (? queue: DonaldWay, MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, AFA ChrisW : IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren) AFC RClark : (I've got this one, Jordan) JEClark : (do I get a tradin allowance for my telephone book IM JEClark : Ga AFC RClark : It's the same model as the 68K, at least for now. The same OS and Toolbox, the same drivers, etc. AFC RClark : That gives us extremely high compatibility, but we're not sitting still on improvements either. AFC RClark : (Change details in the future) AFC RClark : (we gotta keep you coming back here, right ;) ) AFC RClark : ga AFC RClark : DonaldWay, thanks for being patient. DonaldWay : You may have already answered this, but I just want to be sure... DonaldWay : You stated that developers who've received seed hardware would get PowerPC SDK in August... DonaldWay : and that it would be publicly available when PowerPC ships... DonaldWay : Will there be another way to get the tools before that? Like on the Developer CD? DonaldWay : (and where do I get the t-shirt?) DonaldWay : GA IUP : (what does ga stand for?) AFC RClark : *** The question queue is now closed. We'll take who we have *** AFC RClark : (ga == "go ahead") JMattson : No, the tools will be available as part of the SDK. They will not be going out on the Developer CD. JMattson : Question for the audience - taking a mini-poll here, I am a marketing dweeb (with the heart of a JMattson : techie, so I have to do some market research...). How many people would be interested in purchasing JMattson : SDK, before they can get hardware. Answers yes or DonaldWay : yes GCTan : yes! JSteinmetz : Yes DevScott : YES!! AFA ChrisW : <== yes! RobToren : yes AFC Wade : Yes!! The more we can read, the better! HarlanR : no Davelf : Yes! JFisher : what's a SDK? AndrewWelc : YES JMattson : no, and the maximum number of months before you would get hardware: yes, 6 (yes, six months). AFC Wade : SDK = Software development kit JMattson : An SDK is a software developer kit. Just means everything that you need to develop for a platform. Exeter MUG : yes DSPman : Perhaps GCTan : still yes AFC Wade : amended answer...yes, and as much as possible as soon as possible AFA ChrisW : I'll take it whenever I can get it IUP : I'm not a MAC developer yet AndrewWelc : everything? :) DonaldWay : still yes... as soon as I can get it HarlanR : yes, 2-3 MHinton : Prolly not... JFisher : no MonarchS : no JMattson : Yes or no, and the max number of months before you get hardeware that you would be willing to get it. Davelf : Still yes... MacAllan : N/A - end user only AndrewWelc : YES, 6 months. MHinton : expansion: of how much use is an SDK if there's no platform on which to test the generated code? DSPman : Yes, if it had a SW simulator for testing code. GCTan : yes, 6 mos AFA ChrisW : Information ASAP will be useful, even if it only allows me to think about what the future will hold. KitP : Also end user DevScott : YES..6-8 mos Davelf : Yes, 6 months. AFC Wade : Again, the more preparation the better...as long as we're not forced to buy a new release of the SDK.. DonaldWay : Exactly what ChrisW said... yes, now AFC Wade : for $299 every 3 months JMattson : If you got it, would you start moving your code over (recompiling your it, cleaning it up and getting JMattson : getting it ready for testing and debugging) Davelf : Any info at any time would be welcome... :-) DonaldWay : yes (and seeing what other issues were involved) JMattson : GA Evil Tiggy : Sorry Bad node: Yes DevScott : Definitely. DonaldWay : We cannot have too much information. Tis impossible. Davelf : Queue update? Thanx! JMattson : Thanks for you input...the survey is closed. And the next question is... AFC RClark : MonarchS -- You're next AFA ChrisW : I think even getting the type of info that was available at MacHack would be useful to many developers AFA ChrisW : (? queue: MonarchS, DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, DonaldWay : So you're thinking about releasing SDK before PowerPC ships, right? AFA ChrisW : Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren) MonarchS : Ok, I have a new LCIII, how much life do you think the Mac has left in it? (As in years) Robert8267 : ? JMattson : Chris W - if you want that, you will have to sign a NDA. JMattson : GA MonarchS : ga AFA ChrisW : Ok, I won't say anything more then :) IUP : MOnarch, ga JMattson : I think that the Mac has a long and interesting life. At least a decade. I plan on vesting my JMattson : stock options!!!!! JMattson : That will take us through 1998! JMattson : GA MonarchS : Grin! Also, will there be an upgrade for existing Macs to PowerPC compatibility? Will Apple still MonarchS : support the Mac? JMattson : Apple has announced upgrades for the Centris 610, 650, etc...check MacWeek for details :-)! AFA ChrisW : (? queue: DSPman, Exeter MUG, Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 AFA ChrisW : vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren) JMattson : The PowerPC IS A Macintosh!!!!! It is a Macintosh running on a PowerPC!!! BUT it is still a Macintosh. RobToren : Will it be possible to write one app that tests with Gestalt if it's a PPC, and then JMattson : GA AFC RClark : DSPman -- You signalled? DSPman : I'm very much looking forward to the PowerPC. Will the PowerPC Mac get a DSP? MonarchS : What's the price range for those upgrades (and will there be one for the LCIII)? JMattson : DSP Man...I am sorry but I can't answers the specifics. If you are using the managers that take JMattson : advantage of facilities that might be helped by a DSP, then you will run fine on any platform that MonarchS : I mean, will the older Macs (Centris and back) still be supported? Or will Apple emphasize the MonarchS : Power PC? MonarchS : (Whoops!) JMattson : supports those facilitiees. What is a DSP except for a very, very fast floating point unit. And DSPman : Thanks. No more questions here. JMattson : PowerPC has a very, very fast floating point unit. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : Exeter MUG -- thanks for waiting. Your question? GCTan : how's our time, imperious leader? Exeter MUG : Already got answered. Thanks, though? AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Evil Tiggy, MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, AFA ChrisW : Neka, RobToren) Exeter MUG : (oops) AFC RClark : then it's Evil Tiggy turn Evil Tiggy : Will there be a P.PC upgrade for my Q 700 Or once again am I screwed because Ibought a more expensive Evil Tiggy : Mac Anytime179 : ! JMattson : Evil Tiggy - we have not announced an upgrade for the Q700, but we are looking at ones for machines JMattson : beyond those that we announced support for. Apple will be doing upgrades, as well as Evil Tiggy : Please Look hard as an Apple Rep there are a lot of unhappy 700 users JMattson : working with third-parties to do them. Evil Tiggy : that feel like life is passing them by Evil Tiggy : Thanks and GA JMattson : Thanks for you comment, I will mention them to the appropriate folks when I see them. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : Anytime, your comment? AFA ChrisW : (? queue: MHinton, AFC Wade, Davelf, HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren) Anytime179 : Last week's MacWeek had a letter from an important Cuper-type who took excception to the idea that... Anytime179 : the Quadras had not been mentioned for the upgrade. He indicated that there would ultimately be... Anytime179 : support. We need to have some as of late unfounded faith! Anytime179 : GA JMattson : Thanks Anytimes. I should mention that Apple is the best in the industry at offering upgrades. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : MHinton -- your question? MHinton : (Upgrade path, cont.) I can see it for NuBus Macs, but what about PDS machines (P450 / LC3 et al)? GA JMattson : The upgrades that Apple has mentioned are for LBUs (Logic Board Upgrades). JMattson : Third-parties find the PDS slot quite attractive for upgrades. We are working on both. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : AFC Wade: take 2! AFC Wade : I know pricing is not set, but you probably are getting some idea of what this baby will cost.. AFC Wade : how about a hint? A below $##### number? Thumper727 : Hi, does anyone have an opinion on the Quandra 800? JMattson : Far below $1,000,000...:-)! AFC Wade : Touche' AFC Wade : :) AFC RClark : Thumper -- we're on protocol. Please just don't pop in like that AFA ChrisW : (? queue: HarlanR, IUP, Anytime179, Pro 1 vid, Chris2ferG, RobToren) JMattson : Seriously, it will be very competitive...it will be competitive with 680x0 machines AFC Wade : Was that $1,000.00? :) JMattson : that have the same performance as the 680x0 emulator. JMattson : So you get the same 680x0 performance, but have a much higher performance when running native apps. JMattson : So start telling you favorite app developers to start going native. I want a real time flight JMattson : simulator. Any one for "Hell Cats Over Tokyo!" JMattson : GA AFC Guru : me me me ! AFC RClark : No, "Hell Cats Over redmond" ! :) JMattson : Or maybe that should be: "Hell Cats over Remond!" AFC RClark : HarlanR -- you're up AndrewWelc : I want to write a super-3D Maelstrom! :) HarlanR : I didn;'t quite get it - is apple working on some sort of PDS or NUBUS adaptation- HarlanR : ala Radius Rocket et al? HarlanR : or even considering it? JMattson : I can't say...as I said earlier, "I like my job!" HarlanR : especially for those of us with IIci, IIfx, etc. HarlanR : oh... HarlanR : right. HarlanR : well, I'd like to put in a good word. I cant afford Quadra right now and then PPC HarlanR : only have old IIci to limp around on Robert8267 : ? JMattson : As I said earlier, we are doing LBU - logic board upgrades - for which we have announced HarlanR : (poor thing need siron lung) JMattson : a whole host of machines that we are supporting. HarlanR : thanks. GA JMattson : We are also working with third-parties, evangelising them to do PDS upgrades. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : IUP -- welcome back IUP : Jordan, I'll give you the concise version of a situation I've been grappling with for... IUP : some time now IUP : I'm strongly thinking of getting into development; so the question is: PC or MAC. I've been IUP : enamored of the mac for a long time now, but i'm using three criteria to make my decision-- IUP : tecnology, job opportunities, and IUP : training availability, to learn how to program whatever system I decide on. AFC Wade : ! The IIci hardly limps. :) IUP : What i seem to have found, unfortunately, and this is what I want your innput otn... IUP : input on, Evil Tiggy : ! IUP : is that it is VERY DIFFICULT to find training in the ny area to learn to program the mac. Evil Tiggy : Mac is #1 in Business user satisfaction last 2 years running and it's #1 in Education. IUP : For example, several local universities... IUP : NYU, Columbia, Pace, and Baruch, all offer certificate programs, for those who IUP : are interested in learning PC programming... IUP : but for the mac, it seems like you either have to go to Cupertino (!), or simply "wing-it" ... IUP : yourself out of books, and developer CD's, etc. There is New Hampshire, but they do not offer the JMattson : Ok, first point: technology. The Mac, IMHO, is the leader in this realm! IUP : full developer course. One more thing... JMattson : Second, job opportunites. Every time that I talk to software develoeprs, they are looking everywhere JMattson : for talent to program the Mac. They are sucking wind!!!!! AndrewWelc : ? IUP : As it stands, I'm thinking more seriously about the PC, which is a shame, JMattson : Third: Training. If you want to learn to program the Mac, you can get tutored training in Cupertino IUP : since I do feel that the MAC is the techology leader. But... JMattson : But the reality is that you are going to have to do a lot of learning on your own. RobToren : Hm...IUP: the line is long. Cut to the chase! AndrewWelc : (are we still using protocol?) AFC RClark : Yes, we are on protocol Evil Tiggy : ! JMattson : And if you want to get started, they you should use the WopLobster : Hello Wade....Thought I'd drop in for a second... IUP : The thing is, I am not currently a profesional programmer... Evil Tiggy : ! You said it, it's a Shame you are looking at PC if you have used Both then you know what you should JMattson : excellent self-paced materials from DU! (That will be $5.00 Richard :-))! Evil Tiggy : learn Evil Tiggy : ;) AFA ChrisW : IUP, this really isn't an appropriate forum to discuss the pros and cons of Mac vs. PC. JMattson : If you want to learn Windows - not DOS - you will have to make the trek to Redmond, WA. AFC RClark : One question for IUP -- do you think that character-based DOS programming is the real... AFC RClark : growth market? AFA ChrisW : Why don't you post a message in the Mac/PC Cross Development board in MDV? JMattson : Therefore, you can use our self-paced materials. Or you can can use the training in Cupertino. The Evil Tiggy : !LOL RCLARK IUP : Why do you say I'll have to go to redmond to learn windows JMattson : choice is yours. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : Let's go to "Pro 1 vid" Pro 1 vid : What is the role of Power PC with desktop video? Will existing capture cards be compatible? Centris AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Anytime179, Chris2ferG, Neka, RobToren, Robert8267, AndrewWelc) Pro 1 vid : or quadra for acurrent purchase with upgrade in mind? Pro 1 vid : ga JMattson : The first PowerPC will be able to use existing NuBus cards. Therefore, you will be able to use JMattson : what you buy today in it. IT IS A MACINTOSH!!!!!! JMattson : GA AFC RClark : Anytime179 -- I didn't mean to skip you...GA Anytime179 : Will Apple and/or IBM sell the the code for the Power PC (i.e. the "Compaq P.PC.") and will that... Anytime179 : ultimately mean an end to Mac CPUs and the beginning of $495 Mac OS (ala Window NT)? Anytime179 : GA JMattson : Question out of bounds...I will leave speculation on such topics to the press. I like my job! JMattson : GA AFC RClark : Chris2ferG is on Chris2ferG : Should I buy an LC 3 now, or wait for the Power PC. And why? I'm using it for personal use. AFA ChrisW : (? queue: RobToren, Robert8267, AndrewWelc) JMattson : Do you need the computer today? Then buy it! As we all know, the machine you can buy today will be JMattson : quickly surplanted by something else tomorrow. JMattson : Buy it know, if you need it. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : RobToren, you're up RobToren : Will it be possible to write one app that tests with Gestalt if it's a PPC, and then AFA ChrisW : (? queue: Robert8267, AndrewWelc) RobToren : calls different segments for the 68K or for the PPC? Or will developers have RobToren : to ship two separate versions? Thanks, GA JMattson : Actually, it is better than a gestalt call. The runtime architecture has changed a little. RobToren : Waddya mean? JMattson : Now, there is a thing called the Code Fragment Loader - CFL. It will load your code be it 68K or JMattson : PowerPC. It will check for the existence of the CFRI resource and if it finds it, will run your JMattson : PowerPC code. If it does not find it, it will run your 68K code. JMattson : This enables you to easily and transparently ship what we call a "Fat Binary". JMattson : Building a fat binary involves a few not-so fancy operations with rez. JMattson : GA RobToren : Thanks. GA AFC RClark : One more thing... AFC RClark : PowerPC apps can call 68K code with very little effort, and... AFC RClark : 68K apps can call POwerPC code (such as a "native" XCMD) with no effort... AFC RClark : (thoug the PowerPC XCMD has to include a special data structure.) AFC RClark : We've really done our homework. AFC RClark : Robert8267 -- your turn Robert8267 : Can you even SUGGEST a possible price range on the MacPowerPC? JMattson : NO!!!!!! We will initially be offering a mid-range configuration and a high-end configuration. JMattson : The answers to this question was given earlier. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : AndrewWelc, take us home. AndrewWelc : OK! AndrewWelc : Right now I see the "standard" OS and platform up in the air, more so than ever before in the PC AFA ChrisW : (A log of tonight's conference will be available here in MDV before the end of the week.) AndrewWelc : industry. We've got Taligent, we've got Solaris, we've got NeXTSTEP, we've got Windows NT AndrewWelc : --and many more--all from big players, and all with their sights on the same market. What AndrewWelc : makes you believe that Taligent will be a market leader? GA JMattson : First, I did not say that Taligent will be the market leader. We are here tonight to talk JMattson : about the Macintosh (I said, Macintosh) on PowerPC. This and Taligent are two VERY Different things. JMattson : Second, I don't believe that Taligent, Solaris, NextStep, and Windows NT are all going after the same AndrewWelc : Right, I understand that. Figured I'd give it a shot anyway... (can't hurt to pry--or is that try?) JMattson : market segment. NextStep is almost dead. Solaris and Taligent said that they are going after the AFC RClark : Andrew -- is there a difference? <grin> JMattson : enterprise market. MS is repositioning Windows NT as a server product. Very different products with JMattson : different markets. I don't think that we will ever JMattson : have an OS uber alles. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : Jordan, before we conclude, can you say anything about development tools for the PowerPC, AFA ChrisW : specifically with regard to the Apple/Symantec announcement at WWDC? There has been some AFA ChrisW : confusion about the meaning of this announcement, perhaps you can clear things up? GA JMattson : Ok, Chris! JMattson : At the WWDC Apple and Symantec announced that we are co-developing a next generation development JMattson : environment for the Macintosh. This project will involve Apple and Symantec engineers, product JMattson : marketing people, project mgmt people, and tech pubs (and even maybe training people) JMattson : working together to define, implement, and deliver a new development environment for the Macintosh. JMattson : The first incarnation of this development environment will appear on the Macintosh on PowerPC. JMattson : Any other questions Chris? I can take a few more. My girl friend is studying for the Bar Exam, so I am JMattson : very free! AFA ChrisW : Thanks for the info. Seeing how we've been talking mostly about marketing tonight, I figured a AFA ChrisW : question actually about development would be a good idea! AFA ChrisW : Any more questions for Jordan tonight? OSU Stumon : ? JMattson : What! Marketing! I answered at least two or three technical questions!!!! AndrewWelc : ? AFA ChrisW : :) AFC RClark : OK, OSU -- ask away OSU Stumon : Jordan, I missed this at MacHack... OSU Stumon : What does a company have to do to get one of the first development PowerPCs? OSU Stumon : ga IUP : ? JMattson : You need to submit a migration plan that outlines what you are going to do for the Mac on PowerPC JMattson : and how this will take advantage of the Macintosh on PowerPC. JMattson : There is a template for this migration plan. If you send me EMail to Mattson1 on AppleLink (remember JMattson : the 1, or some poor sales person in MN will get my mail) I will send it to you. JMattson : GA AndrewWelc : Here's another pry--I mean try at it. How radically different will the PINK user and developer AFC Wade : Rumor read today in InforWorld...NT runs Windows apps up to 40% slower than Win 3.1...Ha! :) AndrewWelc : interface be from the current Macintosh interface? I am hoping for some real improvements, AndrewWelc : as the basis of the Mac interface (programmer and user) haven't changed much since 1984! GA JMattson : Andrew, Taligent is a separate company! Contact Taligent to have these questions answered. AndrewWelc : Oh -- and despite Microsoft saying Windows NT is server technology, I'm very skeptical about that. AndrewWelc : I know -- I was hoping for some inside information -- nod nod, grin grin, wink wink, say no more... JMattson : Even if I knew how to answers your question - I don't - I could not legally, without out bringing the JMattson : wrath of the FTC down on my head. JMattson : GA AndrewWelc : Don't want to pull a Ramsey, eh? :) AFC Wade : You know what I want? When copying over files that exist, I want the option to copy only the ones that JMattson : Andrew...one, I don't know the answer! Two, I am legally pervented from revealing such information AFC Wade : don't exist, rather than cancelling the whole operation. :) JMattson : if I did, by the anti-trust laws of this country. JMattson : GA AFC RClark : IUP -- you're back on (please be succinct) AndrewWelc : Gotcha. That would be a bad thing. IUP : ok AFC Wade : Are we still on protocol?? Ohh my gosh! AndrewWelc : 'Twas worth a shot. Ok, I've got a question you can answer... IUP : I was simply trying to see.. AFC Wade : <---terribly embarrassed! Somogyi : ? AndrewWelc : I'm concerned about some of the Mac Toolbox Managers; their limitations specifically, such as IUP : if the top brass at Apple are aware that there are people... AndrewWelc : trashed resource files, 32K TextEdit limit, etc. I'm concerned that moving these existing managers to IUP : out across the country who truly would LIKE to get into Mac development, but there is not enough... AndrewWelc : a screaming fast machine will naturally lead to programmers and users stressing their tolerances IUP : DIRECT Apple support. AndrewWelc : too much, causing even more problems than we have today. What do you think about that? GA IUP : Hey Andrew, I had protocal priority AndrewWelc : (sorry, my mistake) JMattson : First, Andrew: We are looking at how to best move the various managers to the PPC-based Mac. JMattson : We have a lot of very smart people working on this, and compatibility is our top goal. Its compatibili IUP : (please resend direct message--accidental deletion) JMattson : , performance, and then new features. AFC RClark : ! AndrewWelc : ! JMattson : IUP: We are very aware. That is why we have created the self-paced courses. RobToren : ! JMattson : It is simply not possible for Apple to offer DU classes in every town. We offer them in Cupertino JMattson : and a couple fo other places. The Self-paced classes are available everywhere. AFC Wade : ! JMattson : The courses that you mentioned are not direct from MS. Rather they are offered by local schools. We JMattson : also support this. If you want such a class, inquiry about it being offered. IUP : OK, fair enough, but how about at least offering them on the other major U.S. coast? JMattson : But if you want to learn to program and program the mac, the best place to start is here. JMattson : Get involved in some of the self-paced classes here. Try the DU self-paced classes. Start trying JMattson : to program the Mac. That is how I learned...back when we had the phone book edition of Inside Mac. IUP : A professional programmer might be comfortable with self-paced courses, Others might not be , and IUP : would be discouraged--like me. JMattson : In addition, the classes are offered from time to time on the East Coast. Or at least the East. JMattson : The self-paced courses are designed for the begineer. Ask Richard Clark to telll you about them. GCTan : ! Boston and DC, I think IUP : Yes--but only from time-to-time, and not the entire Aple developer program JMattson : It is the same material that is presented in DU courses. And it has the advantage that you can take it JMattson : at your own pace and review concepts that you are unclear about. They are very highly rated by the JMattson : folks that take them. I highly recommend them. IUP : I appreciate what you're saying, but let's all acknowledge that JMattson : GA RobToren : !Self paced courses *very* expensive. Problem!! JMattson : So Are DU classes!!!! JMattson : But back to the PPC!!!!!! AFC RClark : IUP -- we can talk about this seperately, and come up with some solutions. (I'm a Sr. Instructor at DU IUP : programming is a complex task, and the student will need in person explaining some of the time... RobToren : !This isn't in Apple's favor... AFC RClark : Andrew, your comment about the managers? AndrewWelc : I guess I sort of see it as dropping a V8 into a VW bug, if you get my meaning--the frame won't handle AndrewWelc : the engine's torque. AndrewWelc : But I understand the reasoning completely. GA AFC RClark : Reasoning by analogy is always dangerous, and usually wrong. However, we DO know where the... AFC RClark : system could use some overhauling, and are seeing what we can do without breaking the world. AFC RClark : (Too bad you weren't at MacHack -- I think you would have liked some of what I could show you... AFC RClark : in the lab.) AFC RClark : GA AndrewWelc : (that's the real trick isn't it, the compatibility--damned if you do, damned if you don't) AndrewWelc : GA AFC RClark : Note that PowerPC is a much faster processor. That dodsn't, by itself, add or subtract stability... AFC RClark : in the system. And stability and compatibility are pretty amazing! JMattson : Yes, After Dark runs emulated!!!!! JMattson : GA AFC RClark : OK, Somogyi has a question to ask all of you... AFA ChrisW : Yeah, and they patch 53 traps! Somogyi : This is a question directed not at Jordan, but at everyone else: AFC Guru : including some they didn't even intend to! Somogyi : What kind of information would people in attendance here like to see in a PowerPC-Mac book? Somogyi : Needless to say, this is not a completely idle question. Somogyi : GA AFC Guru : We call that Fishing! AndrewWelc : ! IUP : ? (uncharacteristically brief parting question and comment--I have to go...) RobToren : Fish away. Compatibility with 68K, and info about a specific development environment. Somogyi : That's it?! Heavens, I was expecting more from this group :-) DonaldWay : Everything that is different about Macintosh on Power PC, and everything that a developer needs... DonaldWay : to know to take advantage of the PowerPC's capabilities. AFC Wade : What it is, how much it will be, how much it will change the user's Mac life AFC Wade : What tips, tricks and traps the developer has to be aware of AFC Wade : A chapter on future plans, Taligent, etc. RobToren : Somogyi: I hope you get strong support from Apl Evangelists. Many more developr books for NT thn Mac AFC Wade : By the way Jordan can you tell us how much faster a native app will run? 2 times faster than a Quadra AFC Wade : 800? 5? 10? DonaldWay : A Symantec C++ bug list would be nice too. Somogyi : Apple is doing a great job supporting this effort. RobToren : Wonderful! AFC RClark : (Stephan is the only MacWeek guy we allow in our secret PowerPC presentations.) Somogyi : Ahem. Richard, I work for MacUser during the day, not our non-NDA-signing sister pub... AFC RClark : Oops, sorry. "MacUser" it is... JMattson : The PowerPC Macintosh will run native apps in integer operations 2 to 4 times faster than a Quadra 950 JMattson : Floating point is 10 to 20 times fasters than a Quadra 950. This depends on the applications Somogyi : I'm heartened that no-one here has suggested anything that isn't already on my list. Thanks to all. JMattson : profile. If you are just running your code, you will hit the top end. If you are calling a lot of the AFC RClark : ...I forgot you don't have that "hardened criminal" look JMattson : toolbox that is emulated, than it will be slower. If you are calling the sections of the toolbox JMattson : that are native and your own code, it will be somewhere in between. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : Any final questions about the PowerPC for Jordan tonight? AndrewWelc : Sure... can I have a free one? DonaldWay : T-shirts? IUP : (***Best of Luck, Jordan--Thanks***) OSU Stumon : Sega PowerPCs? ;) IUP : Yeah, Jordan, can you send me a PPC tee-shirt? AndrewWelc : A Power PP tee-shirt? Could get you into trouble...:) DonaldWay : LOL! JMattson : T-shirts, those got cut in the last round of budget cuts. We have to hand paint them now on our lunch JMattson : hours!!!!!!! IUP : I'l love one--I could wear it while visiting PC dealers! DonaldWay : LOL! AFC RClark : OK, Chris -- Say Goodnight, Gracie! DonaldWay : Thanks for the great info Jordan! JMattson : Thanks for coming at hearing about the MACINTOSH on POWERPC...if you have any questions, just drop me JMattson : an Email at Mattson1@AppleLink.Apple.COM. AFA ChrisW : Jordan, on behalf of all the MDV staff, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to be with us... JMattson : If you want the migration plan template, drop me a link there and I will send it to you. JMattson : GA AFA ChrisW : tonight. Much appreciated! JFisher : Thanks. JMattson : Goodnight every one....May the God Lord guide your steps! 6/21/93 9:32:14 PM Closing Log file.